The Stacks @ Interversity

From: Jan Bone
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 10:12:18


Here at Roosevelt, our 102 students write TWO ten-page documented research papers, graded and revised throughout the process. At Harper, my 101 students did this past term, essays on remembering a person, explaining a concept, comparison/contrast, and
argument, and a final 2-hour write-an-essay exam, and weekly Discussion Board graded assignments requiring critical thinking, and a writing autobiography (ungraded), and a face-to-face or e-conference, and four sets of peer editing in class. Probably something else, but I can't remember at the moment.

I also have proofread-to-within-an-inch-of-your-life portfolios on revised essays (101) and research papers -- (102) all major assignments -- for both classes, turned in before they were allowed to take final exam.

Oh - the Roosevelt 102s also did an annotated bibliography for one of their research papers, following the Cornell model, and the 2nd research paper was essentially a Toulmin claim of policy. We explored the Toulmin philosophy of argument.

From: "Dawn Hogue"
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:29


Jan, but not just Jan, my question specifically about the 10-page research paper is "WHY?"

I know, I wrote one, too. But why? I concede that research skills are important, but does anyone working in the real world write 10 page research papers? I read all the time about the kinds of skills our students need for the future, for the big old flat world where kids from India and China are fighting to become educated. What skills are they learning? What are they doing that we're not? What is it we really should be teaching, not just in high school, but in college? If the high school's job is to prepare students for college, what about that percentage of our students who don't go there? And even if they do go, is having read Beowulf important?

How many college comp courses allow students to research in teams, on real world issues and then present their information in a format that would be real world, like a web site, or a wiki, or a even a power point? In paper, the results of research would probably look like a portfolio with graphs and photographs. But I will bet that most research results are presented digitally, across time and space. Video conferencing, team presentations, audio, etc.

We are in the digital world and it's changing fast. I feel like high school teachers are chained to really antiquated ideas about what kids need that come directly from colleges.

Not meaning to be petulant, but in a way, maybe I am.

dawn

From: Jan Bone
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 10:52


First, as an adjunct, I teach what I'm told to teach.

BUT - actually, in 2006, one of the research papers I assigned had students reading Friedman's World is Flat book,doing some e-interviewing (they did a collaborative interview with an Illinois call center supervisor who was running call centers (from an office 2 miles from campus) in India AND New Brunswick AND Florida) and compared her experiences with the Friedman info on Bangladore - and they took the part in Friedman about job potentials, chose what they thought they'd be doing in 5-7 years after graduation, and created a work/career/educational/other plan to keep themselves from being outsourced on the job(s) they hoped to hold.

I agree. And my gang is phoning press secretaries in Washington (Congressional committee ones) to track legislation on illegal immigration, doing individual short oral presentations with visuals, debating informally, keeping critical-path-analysis-charts on their time and workplans as workplace management tools they can use now and later, etc.

Where are they coming out? With summary, analysis, getting and giving feedback, peer editing, revising, critical reading skills, drafting, etc. One second-semester-freshman used her proposal for a research paper to talk an assistant dean into paying the registration fees for her to go to a state-conference on bilingual education strategies for the classroom (girl is going into teaching)...she attended conference with her peers. Another student, who works part-time for ABN Amro banking, wrote a paper (her choice) on using the Federal Reserve conference data from 2 years ago to help her personal banking group market to Chicagoland immigrants - with the Mexican consulate matricula consulare card, which is permitted as a way of opening bank accounts.

THAT's the kind of research paper they're into.

These kids are in 2nd semester freshman English, and for us, it's required for graduation. They've all paid $1600 to be in the course - we are private university - and they do say they're getting their money's worth.

jan

From: "Jodi Rutledge"
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 20:52:34


Just from my experience, I did do long papers/research papers in college and wondered if it would be beneficial in the working world.

I am not a teacher from the get go. I worked in two insurance agencies and did secretarial work where I did the typical stuff, but b/c I learned to analyze and
overextend my thinking and writing I researched accounts on my own and trouble shooted and saved the owners time which enabled me to be promoted within their company. I was offered partner in one agency but turned it down to work at an insurance company as the communications specialist ... actually started in advertising in co-op and again overextended my job duties and got promoted to communications specialist for the company and ended up writing speeches for the CEO ... then as an English major with no accounting or financial background got hired as the VP of a credit union b/c I researched the company, positions, job duties and wrote a cover letter that got me the job...they gave me the job over someone with 12 years experience in a bank. In this job I worked outside of the box a lot because
of skills from college ... I learned a lot about saving, budgeting, and investments which now enables me to quit a job making over $60,000 to making $35,000 teaching doing what I want to do b/c I have money ... I like sharing this with students who question "why do we have to do this" ... because it helps to determine the type of person you can be, it enables you to extend beyond what everyday people just trying to survive do (just like many of us on this list serv do....we go above and beyond the call and our students are better for it) and then you can get promotions...but then I say "hey, it's up to you to prioritize and make decisions for yourself, so do what is right for you ..."

Jodi

From: theteach
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:52:02

Jan, but not just Jan, my question specifically about the 10-page research paper is "WHY?" I know, I wrote one, too. But why? I concede that research skills are important, but does anyone working in the real world write 10 page research papers?

We are not required to have students write 10 pages. The length of the paper is left to the instructor. Some teachers require 2 short papers instead of one long one. Some may impose a minimum number of pages.

I usually had students write a research paper and a case study. Sometimes they wrote the case study first and then turned it into a research paper format or we began with the research paper and then turned it into the case study. Generally students preferred the case study format.

I discovered that some faculty in other disciplines wanted students to learn the term paper format, though they could not give a good reason for students learning the format. That is, they did not respond to Dawn's question about using this kind of writing in their fields.

I found the case study format or variations of it in more real world situations than I found the research paper format.

As for mode papers: comparison/contrast, narrative, etc,...these were not encouraged, no reqired. Teachers may require them, but they are not departmently required.

I am with you Dawn. I question the reason for the research paper format. I think it does require students to expand their thoughts and to develp their arguments, formal or informal, and helps them develop their prose style. (well I like to think it does this).

what about that percentage of our students who don't go there? And even
if they do go, is having read Beowulf important?

Maybe it's learning to read different languages. :)

How many college comp courses allow students to research in teams ...

Oh, I always gave students this option. Most did not want to do it because of their personal schedules. However, they will get group projects in other classes.

...

alex

From: "Jeni Crowder"
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 13:35:53


Anita,
What are the topics of your comp students papers? Do they selected the topics or do you? On average, how long would you expect the weekly papers to be?

The student's comment was in reference to a unit on 16th-18th century poetry. The student felt she would never be asked to complete poetry analysis in her future college course since she would not be majoring in English. I did point out that while she might not be using the exact materials we were covering currently in class, she would have to read, analysis, and write.

I'm not as concerned with the student's comment but more the idea that perhaps I am not offering students the background they will need. It has been nearly fifteen years since I complete English 112 and 115, and my undergrad experience was before the Internet was easy to access. I would hope that methods have in some part changed, but I am not sure. The comments I receive back from former students are so varied, which definitely ties back to Carla's comments. The more information I can gather about what colleges expect, hopefully my lessons will better prepare my kids for the
next step.

Jeni

From: Jan Bone
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:07:07


Poetry analysis is almost always a part of a literature course, that will almost certainly (love my qualifiers) be required for a student, community college OR university, to complete as part of a gen ed course graduation requirement. Even those at the community college going for a certificate in tech stuff like heating/airconditioning or culinary arts rather than a degree are required to do a year of English comp. Almost certainly, half of it will be literature-based in some form, INCLUDING a research paper.

jan

From: theteach
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 12:12:25 -0600 (CST)

English and history. The basis of my experiences are in those areas. What skills will my kids need that are going to be business majors or chemistry majors? I have one student who will be majoring in turf management. What recommendations do you all have? Thank you! Jeni

Where will this student attend college? I know that Colorado State and Penn State have turf management programs. The programs require basic skills. Yes, students have to know how to read, write, compute, analyze, and articulate their ideas as well as their positions regarding various issues.

Sometimes students forget that although they are reading some "boring" piece of literature and having to discuss and write about it they are learning the skills they will need to accomplish other tasks. Arguement and analysis are not skills confined to an English class. However, if learned there, these skills can be used to examine nursery production or landscape choices that one may want to offer to a client or even a supervisor.

Same is true in business. Thinking that regardless the profession they may want to choose, you could teach memo writing, case study, arguement from the perspective of another discipline. Get them to read articles from other fields, discuss and write about them.

Point out as you teach how a particular assignment will help in another field.

Have students search for college requirements for various majors. I searched for "turf management" and found this list of course requirements at CO State. These are courses students must take while at CO state...

http://hla.agsci.colostate.edu/undergrad/pdf/turf_cs.pdf

alex

From: "Carla Beard"
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 13:46:43


Jeni -

I get this from my kids, too. You are welcome to use the parts of my standard answer that you think will fit.

1. No one knows what you'll do in college.

We can't be sure what specific assignments your profs will be sending your way. We can be sure, however, that you will be asked to read and understand challenging material. You will be expected to think about issues. You will have to write clearly. You will probably also participate in group work, take notes, give speeches, present slide shows, and take essay tests. If you can handle [insert assignment student is complaining about], you'll be able to handle that, too.

2. No one knows what your future job will require.

It's true that getting a job will probably not be dependent upon your knowledge of the poetry of Emily Dickinson [or something else the class studied]. The ability to analyze what you read, however, will help you get ahead. If you can analyze a poem by Dickinson [or whatever], you'll be able to handle the standard business report.

I realize this sounds suspiciously close to the answer I got in 1968 when I asked why I had to learn algebra. OK, Mr. White, you were right.

Carla

From: "Louann Reid"
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 13:49:27


Two years ago, a couple of school districts asked me to address the same questions you're asking, Jeni. I did some research at Colorado State (where I teach) and came up with a description of reading and writing assignments that first-year students could expect. Then, when I went to these other Colorado districts, I was part of a panel that consisted of professors from several of the colleges and universities in the state.

The most common comment from all of us was that students needed to be prepared to think flexibly. Certainly, the goal of creating flexible thinkers is difficult to achieve in a test-driven world. Yet, people who are going to be active learners and leaders in their field really do need to be able to solve problems, critique and create solutions, analyze situations from several angles, and communicate to a variety of audiences. The best research assignments can help, but if the page-length is the primary requirement (and I don't think that's what Jan is stressing), then it probably won't achieve the goal.

According to what I found from the research I did and from some committee work a few years ago, first-year students (who are taking mostly university core curriculum classes) can expect to read assignments from a variety of textbooks and primary sources amounting to about 200 pages a week. They will probably not receive any guidance in how to read their chemistry book differently from their history book. On their own, they will have to figure out what is important and will need skills for remembering what they read. Here's an excerpt from a handout I gave to one of the school-district groups:

Weekly Reading and Writing Requirements for a Prototypical First-Year Student Taking 15 Credits
Courses: Composition (TR), World History (MWF), American Government (MWF), Basic Concepts of Plant Life (TR), and Introduction to Psychology (MWF).

Study: Students should plan to spend two hours for every hour in class.

Assignments:
Two drafts of a summary-response paper (one for each session of composition)
Two chapters for history: Hobbes, Leviathan, Chapters XIII and XVII (online)
Three online newspaper articles and selected chapters for government
Biology textbook reading (49 pages) and prepare for upcoming paper or test
Read three textbook modules and prepare for upcoming exam in psychology

Your students could do this research, too, by going to college Web sites and searching for syllabi for a typical program of study.

I hope this helps. I would be happy to send a handout that I gave to one of the groups. They had asked questions in advance; I then asked our composition faculty for answers, did some research of my own, and put the material together into a kind of FAQ. It's easier for me to send it from my university account, so reply to the email address below my name, not to this message, please.

Louann

From: "Ray Palasz"
Date: Mon, 1 Jan 2007 14:02:53


I agree with what everyone else has said thus far on the topic. I teach at
a high school where, in our English Department, students do a term paper
every year. Freshmen year they are given everything for the paper: topic,
sources, etc., and the goal is to walk them through the process of research
and setting up the format. Sophomores do a biographical paper, and Juniors
do a historical paper. I teach Juniors, and I have them pick an event that
has made America what it is today (Jr. Eng. Is American Lit!) and talk about
three effects. I tell them their thesis has to be about whether the overall
effect has been good or bad. They can pick any combination of good/bad
effects to discuss.

Those going to college but not in Senior AP take Intensive Writing (which I
taught for the first time this semester). The students do reflective
writing, resume/cover letter writing, but the bulk of the semester is on a
research series of papers. Students pick a social issue (I give a suggested
list and they pick from it or devise their own) and write a cause-effect
paper (2 pages), a problem-solution paper (4 pages), and a final persuasive
paper advocating one solution over the other two in addressing the issue. (6
pages). What is interesting is that the kids rework the info and add
sources with each new paper, and it gives them time to really delve in to
the topics. I am wrapping up the evaluations on them between today and
tomorrow (last two days of break for me!), and I am pretty impressed with
the result (of course, there are things I'm definitely doing different next
year!).

But I digress. As others have said, the writing/research process teaches
important critical thinking skills. No, our students may not have to ever
write compare-contrast essays in life, but they may have to do a Power Point
on three different software programs their company is considering using.
The experience in writing such papers earlier in life gives them a format
for the real-world application. And so on and so on. In terms of length, I
have mixed feelings about it. Generally, it forces students to think in
depth by giving a page length. However, as I read individual papers, I take
into account those students who are able to use brevity to their advantage.
By focusing on the content-what I'm expecting them to discuss in the
paper-and offering possible lengths for each section of the paper in order
to show how much of the paper should be dedicated to each section, they see
how easy it can be to achieve the length.

In the end, you'll still have jokers who won't believe you and fight you all
the way. Some of my seniors are like this. But I tell them that a year
from now they will be worshipping at my feet for telling them some of the
things they can expect when they get to college and for trying to prepare
them. And lastly, my dept. chair always says to her kids (mostly AP), that
she will consider relaxing the standards when students come back from
college saying they were prepared too much. Most kids say they wish they
had spent more time on some topic or another!

Just my .02

Ray

From: ryecatchers@aol.com
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:16:21


Jen,
I teach both high school seniors and freshman compostion (over achiever). One thing that bothers me has to do with the coddling we still do for them senior year. I don't know your grading policies or extra credit points but for the former, our district is talking about removing zeroes. And students subsitute extra credit to recover from missed assignments. In my college class there are no late papers, no excuses,no extra credit.

Students don't understand what revision is AND they have no style or voice. That includes lack of vocabulary and overuse of blah verbs (be verbs the worst offenders). Think out of the box--the box for me is that inane five paragraph you know what as Tom Romano calls it. None of my students can use it by design.

I want them to be clear and articulate writers/thinkers who understand that research is not just a compliation of internet resources.

Just tell them that if you work them too hard, college will be a pleasant surprise. But, I doubt you are doing so.

I don't want to start back in again tomorrow--just in case my attitude might reflect this :).
Marilyn

From: "M R"
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 18:38:00


I teach 9th grade-but your "turf management" kid caught my eye. Several summers ago my husband and I were at a baseball game watching our college age son play. I was reading The River Why between innings when a young man walking by me stopped, grabbed the book, lofted it high, and proclaimed ,"This is the best book in the whole world, and you should all read it!"

During our conversation which followed, he told me that his major was turf management. We see him now in the summers and he no longer plays baseball, but works on the field where our younger son plays. He's still working his way through school with the turf management major, and we often discuss literature and even trade books. The last time we spoke he handed me a much read Vonnegot, and I gave him an Isabelle Allende.

It's amazing the number of people who stop to chat while we discuss books and throw in their own favorite authors and opinions of what we're reading.

Sorry for the rambling aside-but I'm ready for this dreary time of year to end, and I can't wait to hear the thud of the mitt and the crack of the bat!

Melinda

From: "Nancy Patterson"
Date: Mon, 01 Jan 2007 14:07:43


Jeni, in a way it is impossible to answer this question-at least specifically. So much of the answer rests in the heart of the student, the college/university the student attends, and the individual professors the student gets.

When I teach undergraduates, I see them when they are seniors. I am almost always deeply impressed by my students' curiousity, their willingness to learn, and their abilities to make connections between what we are doing in class and the wider world. I'd say that if you can help your students exercise their curiousity, engage in meaningful tasks, and related those tasks to the larger world, you would be serving them well.

I think there is a real danger in focusing on "things" when preparing students for college. You tend to get some sort of collapsed, reduced, dry fodder that won't give them much sustenance. You run the risk of covering curriculum rather than teaching. Don't get me wrong. I think curriculum is important. But if you look, for example, at the national english language arts standards, you will see that they are put in very broad terms.

We often hear that colleges and business want students who can think. And, so, schools tell teachers to teach students how to think. That can't really be done, at least in the way that many people, um, think. In fact, I think it is ridiculous for teachers to assume that students do NOT know how to think. Anything you can do to help your students express their thinking through written, spoken, and imagistic language helps them move along a continuum they will follow their entire lives. The more you can help them express why they believe something, solve a problem in multiple language modes, connect and articulate a connection is valuable.

Nancy