Re: Frankey Jones & Stanley Milgram's Obedience to

["Alan Young" <alanyoung@mchsi.com>]

should say no less powerful not "now" less powerful.

Alan
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alan Young" <alanyoung@mchsi.com>
To: <arn-l@interversity.org>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 6:12 PM
Subject: Re: [arn-l] Frankey Jones & Stanley Milgram's Obedience to


> Not really just "social pressure" but the manipulation persons throught he
> mainipulation of social contexts. So I believe Bill's point still is
valid.
> This is not simplistic and now less powerfuil jsut because it is
> sophisticated and nuanced. George C. - You really ought to check "The
Power
> of the Situation" video as well as other videos on marketing like Still
> Killing us Softly (speaking of "soft bigotry" of comercialism). Making a
> better, less expensive test is not the answer. Finding the money to make
> this ESEA work would be even worse. It would exchange the jute rope around
> our necks for a golden one will not choke us any less. This is what we
have
> to educate the Democrats about. They should not run on that the only
problem
> with this is that it is underfunded. It is fundamentally flawed. The only
> part that is acceptable may be the empty phrase that they sold this bill
of
> goods on.. . No Child Left Behind. Empty rhetoric.
>
> And that the results of this testing mania are primarily the result of
> democratic action is baloney. It is the power that can be wielded and
> utilized in our particular version of democracy which has been long
> distorted by those with power and money that are at work here. This is not
> the result of democracy but the result of those who work mostly to take
> advantage of the flaws and imperfections in our democracy.
> Alan
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "George K Cunningham" <gkc@louisville.edu>
> To: <arn-l@interversity.org>
> Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 12:11 PM
> Subject: Re: [arn-l] Frankey Jones & Stanley Milgram's Obedience to
>
>
> > JB and Bill,
> >
> > Bad analogy.  In the Milgram experiments, like related experiments in
> > which subjects, through social pressure, are made to do things that they
> > otherwise would not do, the presumption is that afterwards when they
> > understand what happened they will realize that they were wrong.  You,
> > like many on this list, object to NCLB and the standards-based education
> > reform it represents.  You see it as the moral equivalent of
> > administering pointless and painful electrical shocks.  Most of the
> > country does not see it this way.  They view these as necessary and
> > effective educational practices.  Every governor aspires to be the
> > "educational governor" so that they can ride this to the White House and
> > become the "educational president," which was the successful strategy of
> > both Clinton and G. W. Bush.  NCLB was approved by congress with
> > widespread and bipartisan support.  The testing programs in all the
> > states are the result of the democratic process of legislative
> > deliberations.  The people who do this believe strongly that they are
> > doing what is best for the students in their state.
> >
> > I respect those who oppose these policies.  I think that the test being
> > administered are technically deficient and way too expensive and the
> > ultimate goal of forcing schools to adopt more effective instructional
> > methods might be achieved in other ways.  What I don't think you can
> > legitimately do is assert that those who advocate these practices are
> > moral cowards somehow intimidated into doing things that they know are
> > wrong, like the subjects in the Milgram experiments.
> >
> > George K. Cunningham
> > University of Louisville
> >
> > >>> gbracey@erols.com 01/26/03 12:34PM >>>
> > Since some on the ARN list are too young to recall the Milgram
> > experiments,
> > a little historical context:  Israel had snatched Adolf Eichmann, the
> > go-to
> > guy of the Holocaust, out of Argentina and put him on trial in Israel.
> > People argued that Eichmann was had to be a monster.  Only an evil
> > monster
> > could do such a thing.  He said he was just following orders.
> > Philosopher
> > Hannah Arendt said that was probably true in her "banality of evil"
> > writings
> > (Eichmann in Jerusalem: A Report on the Banality of Evil).  Anyone
> > could be
> > an Eichmann.  This thesis did not sit well with a lot of folks.
> >
> > Milgram's experiments were designed to test, insofar as possible, the
> > banality of evil thesis.  He confirmed it.
> >
> > The UK site is a bit inaccurate and incomplete.  In the original, the
> > naive
> > subject was led to think he/she was helping a scientist (in a white
> > lab
> > coat) conduct an experiment (in those days, one requirement for passing
> > a
> > psych. 1 course was to participate in experiments conducted by faculty
> > and
> > graduate students, a wee bit of coercion itself).  I don't recall
> > anything
> > about a middle aged man and heart trouble.  The dupe was visible and
> > could
> > be heard in pain and seen writhing.
> >
> > I don't recall the scale being marked in volts, but the right hand side
> > was
> > in red and marked "danger."  Lots of people administered shocks with
> > the
> > scale in the red zone.
> >
> > Milgram's studies have been replicated all over the world with the
> > highest
> > compliance rate being in...Germany.  If the "scientist" didn't have a
> > white
> > coat, compliance was reduced.  If another person was present,
> > compliance
> > also fell--that person could be enlisted as an ally of the
> > shock-giver.
> > There were other variations that elude me now.
> >
> > I've been thinking about this in connection with NCLB--why the ef
> > don't
> > people rise up and denounce it???
> >
> > JB
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "William Cala" <wcala@rochester.rr.com>
> > To: <arn-l@interversity.org>; <Wildyears3@aol.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 11:51 AM
> > Subject: [arn-l] Frankey Jones & Stanley Milgram's Obedience to
> > Authority
> >
> >
> > Stanley Milgram was a social psychologist with a Ph.D. from Harvard
> > and
> > later taught at Yale.  His award-winning book of 1974, Obedience to
> > Authority resonates today.  Please note the following excerpt from a
> > UK
> > Social Psych. site:
> >
> >       Stanley Milgram's studies on obedience, conducted in the late
> > 1950s
> > are among the most dramatic and unnerving of all Psychology studies.
> > Milgram
> > was interested in how far people would go in following the orders of a
> > person in authority. In his studies, a naive subject (the 'teacher')
> > was led
> > to believe that he was delivering increasingly powerful shocks to a
> > middle-aged man (the 'learner') with a heart condition in another
> > room.
> >       At some point in the study, the learner began to complain of
> > heart
> > problems, and to demand that the shocks stop. Each time the teacher
> > tried to
> > stop, the experimenter would insist that the experiment go on. To
> > everyone's
> > surprise, over 60% of all subjects followed the experimenter's commands
> > to
> > go on, even after the learner ceased responding entirely.
> >
> >       Although it is sometimes suggested that the same results would
> > not be
> > obtained today, or with other populations - e.g., women. Remarkably
> > however,
> > similar results were obtained in the Netherlands in 1986, with female
> > nurses
> > as subjects. Some things never change.....
> >
> >       I have repeatedly wondered why so many people (administrators,
> > teachers etc.) while speaking one-on-one clearly understand and are
> > able to
> > articulate the damage of HST, yet when told to administer them, take
> > them
> > etc., they follow like sheep being led to the slaughter.    On Friday,
> > I
> > spoke with a fellow resisting superintendent from Nassau County in
> > Long
> > Island.  He said, "Bill, they've all given up down here.  They
> > (superintendents) are now trying to raise test scores."
> >
> >       When I read of the rare exceptions like Frankey Jones and James
> > Hope
> > (and the heroes on this list) I cannot help but think of Milgram's
> > Theory of
> > Obedience and why we are in the mess that we find ourselves with HST.
> >
> >       "The theory that only those on the sadistic fringe of society
> > would
> > submit to such cruelty is disclaimed."    "....Milgram has noted
> > reoccurring
> > themes (as found in Obdenience to Authority)."  (He details the My Lai
> > massacre in Vietnam).  But the studies do not deal with extreme
> > situations
> > such as war.
> >
> >       "People who are doing a job as instructed by an administrative
> > figure
> > are following the instructions of that administrative outlook and not
> > the
> > outlook of a moral code. The feelings of duty and personal emotion are
> > clearly separated. Responsibility shifts in the mind of the subordinate
> > from
> > himself/herself to the authority figure. There is a well defined
> > purpose
> > behind the actions or goals of the authority, and the subordinate is
> > depended upon to help and meet those goals. Milgram points out, "The
> > results, as seen and felt in the laboratory, are to this author
> > disturbing.
> > They raise the possibility that human nature, or -more specifically-the
> > kind
> > of character produced in American society, cannot be counted on to
> > insulate
> > the citizens from brutality and inhumane treatment at the direction of
> > malevolent authority."
> >
> >       Milgram speaks of a "malevolent authority."  What would
> > administrators
> > and teachers do under the pressure of a "benevolent authority?"
> > Milgram's
> > studies show that 65% of all the "teachers" punished the "learners" to
> > the
> > maximum of 450 volts.
> >
> >       I find Milgram's use of "teacher" and "learner" frigteningly
> > analogous.
> >
> >       "According to Milgram, every human has the dual capacity to
> > function
> > as an individual exercising his or her own moral judgement and the
> > capacity
> > to make their own moral decisions based on their personal character.
> > What is
> > still a mystery is this, what happens to the average person who is
> > obedient
> > to authority when it overrides their own moral judgement?"
> >
> >       We must continue the fight and support the Frankey Joneses of
> > the
> > world.
> >
> >       Bill Cala (in total admiration of Frankey Jones and what she has
> > done)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
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