Re: [arn-l Digest] Vol. 3 No. 430 Messages: 7

[Steven Bergkamp <stevebergkamp@yahoo.com>]

Can I please disenroll from this group?
   
  

arn-l-owner@interversity.org wrote:
  ARN-L Daily Digest 
Volume 3 : Issue 430 : "text" Format

Messages in this Issue:
200706/11 : Re: Most Adults...
PRISCILLA GUTIERREZ
200706/12 : Re: Most Adults...
aburke5054
200706/16 : Re: Most Adults...
PRISCILLA GUTIERREZ
200706/13 : Re: Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New
National Poll
aburke5054
200706/14 : Re: Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New National Poll
Tauna Rogers
200706/15 : Let Children Be Children
Bob Schaeffer
200706/17 : Students acing SOL tests
WMZEMKA

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 13:42:15 +0000
From: "PRISCILLA GUTIERREZ" 

To: arn-l@interversity.org
Subject: Re: Most Adults...
Message-ID: 

Art writes: "I have no idea what else you are trying to say."

Give the man a cigar - he finally admits his complete inability to 
comprehend honest dialogue. Now everyone yawn once more in boredom...



Priscilla Gutierrez
Outreach Specialist
New Mexico School for the Deaf

...change is inevitable, growth is optional...



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:32:55 -0400
From: aburke5054@aol.com
To: arn-l@interversity.org
Subject: Re: Most Adults...
Message-ID: <8C9740B974E7A04-11A8-7F77@webmail-da05.sysops.aol.com>


I think that what is really boring is criticizing the person rather than criticizing the argument.? Some people don't seem to comprehend the difference.? And I say that in the spirit of honest dialogue.?? 

Art


-----Original Message-----
From: PRISCILLA GUTIERREZ 

To: arn-l@interversity.org
Sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 6:42 am
Subject: Re: [arn-l] Most Adults...









Art writes: "I have no idea what else you are trying to say."?
?

Give the man a cigar - he finally admits his complete inability to 
comprehend honest dialogue. Now everyone yawn once more in boredom...?
?

?

Priscilla Gutierrez?

Outreach Specialist?

New Mexico School for the Deaf?
?

...change is inevitable, growth is optional...?
?


-----------------------------------------------?

Report list problems to listmom@interversity.net?






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------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 22:15:39 +0000
From: "PRISCILLA GUTIERREZ" 

To: arn-l@interversity.org
Subject: Re: Most Adults...
Message-ID: 

What dialogue? You call what you post dialogue? Looks and sounds more like 
pat sound bytes. Yawn...



Priscilla Gutierrez
Outreach Specialist
New Mexico School for the Deaf

...change is inevitable, growth is optional...





>From: aburke5054@aol.com
>Reply-To: arn-l@interversity.org
>To: arn-l@interversity.org
>Subject: Re: [arn-l] Most Adults...
>Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 11:32:55 -0400
>
>
> I think that what is really boring is criticizing the person rather than 
>criticizing the argument.? Some people don't seem to comprehend the 
>difference.? And I say that in the spirit of honest dialogue.??
>
>Art
>
>
>-----Original Message-----
>From: PRISCILLA GUTIERREZ 

>To: arn-l@interversity.org
>Sent: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 6:42 am
>Subject: Re: [arn-l] Most Adults...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Art writes: "I have no idea what else you are trying to say."?
>?
>
>Give the man a cigar - he finally admits his complete inability to
>comprehend honest dialogue. Now everyone yawn once more in boredom...?
>?
>
>?
>
>Priscilla Gutierrez?
>
>Outreach Specialist?
>
>New Mexico School for the Deaf?
>?
>
>...change is inevitable, growth is optional...?
>?
>
>
>-----------------------------------------------?
>
>Report list problems to listmom@interversity.net?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>________________________________________________________________________
>AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
>from AOL at AOL.com.



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 12:21:12 -0400
From: aburke5054@aol.com
To: arn-l@interversity.org
Subject: Re: Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New
National Poll
Message-ID: <8C9741256357427-11A8-8089@webmail-da05.sysops.aol.com>


I realize at the outset that I am not going to get very far discussing "details and realities" with someone who sees the world as divided into angels and devils, so I am just going to say what I think and believe.

I think that contrary to what you say, the more people realize that NCLB requires states to improve schools until all their children are proficient, the more they will support it, despite critics' continuing? ontological problems with the notion of "all children proficient."? In addition, I think you assess the impact of NCLB on the schools completely wrong - I don't believe it's destructive at all and in fact I believe what better basis to argue for upgrading programs in schools than accepting responsibility for helping all children succeed?? Finally, there are real problems with NCLB, some of them self-inflicted by states and schools, but I think that Brent Staples had it exactly right when he said that NCLB is the
most important civil rights battle since Brown - that's why I support it and that's why groups like
La Raza and many other civil rights groups support it in its wider
outline.? I think that the Educator Roundtable and other groups that oppose NCLB on specious grounds are doing a disservice to children, parents, and public education similar to the disservice done by groups who were obstinately opposed to Brown.? That's bad company to be in.

Art





itself----Original Message-----

From: Tauna Rogers 
To: arn-l@interversity.org
Sent: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 7:36 pm
Subject: Re: [arn-l] Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New National Poll









Art,?
?

?

I've been reading your posts defending NCLB for quite some time now. 
Invariably, you spin and dodge with appealing rhetoric, as do the law's 
crafty engineers, rather than confronting the law's appalling realities, 
absurdities and hypocrisies. The law portrays itself as on the side of the 
angels. It is not and the devil is found in the details and in who it is 
actually benefiting from the law and who it is that is being most harmed by 
the law..those disadvantaged kids. And when those details become more widely 
known and understood by the public, I believe you will find that the present 
"nearly two-thirds" of Americans who want the law re-written or outright 
abolished will grow to about 85% or more. You consistently avoid those 
details with vague generalities like,?
?

?

"I wonder if people would have a more favorable opinion of NCLB if they were 
told that it obligates states to improve their schools....?"?
?

?

Well gosh Art, I'd estimate off the cuff that oh, almost EVERYBODY would 
agree with improving our schools. But NCLB is not improving our public 
schools, it is destroying them. The proof is out there.?
?

?

"Does anyone outside of the spinmeisters at FairTest really think that most 
Americans want to leave those children behind.?"?
?

?

Hmm.at great risk I'm going out on a limb again and estimating that almost 
100% of our nation's citizens will say they do not want any children left 
behind. Great propaganda. But the NCLB definition of "leaving children 
behind" is, as Jerry Bracey has pointed out, predicated on a false 
dichotomy. How deceitful! (And shame on you for the disparaging remark about 
FairTest. They are most certainly not the spinmeisters). Ask Bush/Spellings 
and Co. to look in the mirror.?
?

?

Addressing the zero percent chance of 100% proficiency on eddra, you said 
the following:?
?

?

"Arguing about the impossibility of all children proficient, either on 
definitional or empirical grounds, is an exercise in silliness rooted in 
failure to distinguish the goal of improving schools.from the goal of all 
children proficient. The goal of all children proficient is supposed to 
drive improvements to schools."?
?

?

Again I ask how you could in good conscience make such a statement about the 
impossible mandate of NCLB when it is on this very basis that children are 
being wrongly labeled, teachers/administrators are losing their jobs, public 
schools are wrongly being labeled failing and are being closed? AN EXERCISE 
IN SILLINESS???
?

?

Please, Art, if you are going to defend NCLB, address these pesky details 
and realities rather than issuing evasive generalities about what you 
believe to be the law's good intentions. For starters, you might directly 
address Jerry's Seven Deadly Absurdities of NCLB found here 
http://weblogs.elearning.ubc.ca/ross/archives/017314.html and elsewhere. I'm 
sure you've long been aware of Jerry's piece on the seven absurdities but I 
want you to ADDRESS them without evasion. And we could easily add to those 
absurdities.?
?

?

Please don't scapegoat the states. Although I fault them for some things, 
all are under the gun of reaching the impossible destination of 100% 
proficiency, regardless of how they've calculated to um "get there". Most 
understandably have plans in place which stave off as long as possible the 
inevitable "failure" that will ensue. Love that NCLB "flexibility" granted 
to the states!?
?

?

Tauna Rogers?
?

Educator Roundtable?
?

?

----- Original Message ----- 
From: ?

To: ?

Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:46 AM?

Subject: Re: [arn-l] Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New 
National Poll?
?


> -----Original Message-----?

> From: Bob Schaeffer ?

> To: ARN Main List ; arn2-strategy 
> ; rethinkaccountdc@yahoogroups.com?

> Sent: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:38 am?

> Subject: [arn-l] Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New 
> National Poll?

>?

>?

>?

>?

>?

>?

>?

>?

>?

> <>??

>?

> MAJORITY WOULD LIKE "NO CHILD" LAW LEFT BEHIND??

>?

> ? Scripps Howard News Service -- May 30, 2007??

>?

> by Thomas Hargrove and Guido H. Stempel III??

> ??

>?

>?

> ...Participants in the poll were told that No Child Left Behind "requires?

> states to test elementary students to determine if schools do a good job?

> teaching. Critics say the law forces teachers to teach to a particular?

> test. From everything you've heard, do you think the No Child Left?

> Behind Act has been good for public schools or not good?"??

> ??

>?

> Only about a third said they think the law has had a positive influence?

> on public education while slightly less than half said it has had a?

> negative impact and a fifth were undecided. ...?

> ??

> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------?

>?

> I wonder if people would have a more favorable opinion of NCLB if they 
> were told that it obligates states to improve their schools, particularly 
> schools that serve large numbers of poor children, minority children, 
> children with disabilities, and children learning English?? Does anyone 
> outside of the spinmeisters at FairTest really think that most Americans 
> want to leave those children behind or that they would not embrace the 
> notion that states should establish reasonable learning goals, administer 
> tests to measure children's progress towards those goals, and step in to 
> do something in schools where lots of children are falling behind??

>?

> Art?

>?

>?

>?

> ________________________________________________________________________?

> AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free 
> from AOL at AOL.com.?

> -----------------------------------------------?

> Report list problems to listmom@interversity.net?

> ?


------------------------------------------------?

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________________________________________________________________________
AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 3 Jun 2007 11:38:47 -0600
From: "Tauna Rogers" 
To: 
Subject: Re: Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New National Poll
Message-ID: <005e01c7a606$0afbfed0$87905a40@WMPCYRC0>

I rest my case. Quite evasive Art.

BTW, I see lots of shades of gray in the world, not all black and white. I 
have never doubted your sincerity in what you believe, just firmly disagree 
with you.

To say that the Educator Roundtable and other groups that oppose NCLB are in 
the company of those who opposed Brown is terribly wrong, irresponsible, and 
way over the top. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Tauna


----- Original Message ----- 
From: 
To: 
Sent: Sunday, June 03, 2007 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [arn-l] Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New 
National Poll


>
> I realize at the outset that I am not going to get very far discussing 
> "details and realities" with someone who sees the world as divided into 
> angels and devils, so I am just going to say what I think and believe.
>
> I think that contrary to what you say, the more people realize that NCLB 
> requires states to improve schools until all their children are 
> proficient, the more they will support it, despite critics' continuing? 
> ontological problems with the notion of "all children proficient."? In 
> addition, I think you assess the impact of NCLB on the schools completely 
> wrong - I don't believe it's destructive at all and in fact I believe what 
> better basis to argue for upgrading programs in schools than accepting 
> responsibility for helping all children succeed?? Finally, there are real 
> problems with NCLB, some of them self-inflicted by states and schools, but 
> I think that Brent Staples had it exactly right when he said that NCLB is 
> the
> most important civil rights battle since Brown - that's why I support it 
> and that's why groups like
> La Raza and many other civil rights groups support it in its wider
> outline.? I think that the Educator Roundtable and other groups that 
> oppose NCLB on specious grounds are doing a disservice to children, 
> parents, and public education similar to the disservice done by groups who 
> were obstinately opposed to Brown.? That's bad company to be in.
>
> Art
>
>
>
>
>
> itself----Original Message-----
>
> From: Tauna Rogers 
> To: arn-l@interversity.org
> Sent: Sat, 2 Jun 2007 7:36 pm
> Subject: Re: [arn-l] Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- 
> New National Poll
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Art,?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> I've been reading your posts defending NCLB for quite some time now.
> Invariably, you spin and dodge with appealing rhetoric, as do the law's
> crafty engineers, rather than confronting the law's appalling realities,
> absurdities and hypocrisies. The law portrays itself as on the side of the
> angels. It is not and the devil is found in the details and in who it is
> actually benefiting from the law and who it is that is being most harmed 
> by
> the law..those disadvantaged kids. And when those details become more 
> widely
> known and understood by the public, I believe you will find that the 
> present
> "nearly two-thirds" of Americans who want the law re-written or outright
> abolished will grow to about 85% or more. You consistently avoid those
> details with vague generalities like,?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> "I wonder if people would have a more favorable opinion of NCLB if they 
> were
> told that it obligates states to improve their schools....?"?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> Well gosh Art, I'd estimate off the cuff that oh, almost EVERYBODY would
> agree with improving our schools. But NCLB is not improving our public
> schools, it is destroying them. The proof is out there.?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> "Does anyone outside of the spinmeisters at FairTest really think that 
> most
> Americans want to leave those children behind.?"?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> Hmm.at great risk I'm going out on a limb again and estimating that almost
> 100% of our nation's citizens will say they do not want any children left
> behind. Great propaganda. But the NCLB definition of "leaving children
> behind" is, as Jerry Bracey has pointed out, predicated on a false
> dichotomy. How deceitful! (And shame on you for the disparaging remark 
> about
> FairTest. They are most certainly not the spinmeisters). Ask 
> Bush/Spellings
> and Co. to look in the mirror.?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> Addressing the zero percent chance of 100% proficiency on eddra, you said
> the following:?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> "Arguing about the impossibility of all children proficient, either on
> definitional or empirical grounds, is an exercise in silliness rooted in
> failure to distinguish the goal of improving schools.from the goal of all
> children proficient. The goal of all children proficient is supposed to
> drive improvements to schools."?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> Again I ask how you could in good conscience make such a statement about 
> the
> impossible mandate of NCLB when it is on this very basis that children are
> being wrongly labeled, teachers/administrators are losing their jobs, 
> public
> schools are wrongly being labeled failing and are being closed? AN 
> EXERCISE
> IN SILLINESS???
> ?
>
> ?
>
> Please, Art, if you are going to defend NCLB, address these pesky details
> and realities rather than issuing evasive generalities about what you
> believe to be the law's good intentions. For starters, you might directly
> address Jerry's Seven Deadly Absurdities of NCLB found here
> http://weblogs.elearning.ubc.ca/ross/archives/017314.html and elsewhere. 
> I'm
> sure you've long been aware of Jerry's piece on the seven absurdities but 
> I
> want you to ADDRESS them without evasion. And we could easily add to those
> absurdities.?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> Please don't scapegoat the states. Although I fault them for some things,
> all are under the gun of reaching the impossible destination of 100%
> proficiency, regardless of how they've calculated to um "get there". Most
> understandably have plans in place which stave off as long as possible the
> inevitable "failure" that will ensue. Love that NCLB "flexibility" granted
> to the states!?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> Tauna Rogers?
> ?
>
> Educator Roundtable?
> ?
>
> ?
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: ?
>
> To: ?
>
> Sent: Friday, June 01, 2007 8:46 AM?
>
> Subject: Re: [arn-l] Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- 
> New
> National Poll?
> ?
>
>
>> -----Original Message-----?
>
>> From: Bob Schaeffer ?
>
>> To: ARN Main List ; arn2-strategy
>> ; rethinkaccountdc@yahoogroups.com?
>
>> Sent: Thu, 31 May 2007 10:38 am?
>
>> Subject: [arn-l] Mos U.S. Adults Want to Leave "No Child" Behind -- New
>> National Poll?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>> <>??
>
>>?
>
>> MAJORITY WOULD LIKE "NO CHILD" LAW LEFT BEHIND??
>
>>?
>
>> ? Scripps Howard News Service -- May 30, 2007??
>
>>?
>
>> by Thomas Hargrove and Guido H. Stempel III??
>
>> ??
>
>>?
>
>>?
>
>> ...Participants in the poll were told that No Child Left Behind 
>> "requires?
>
>> states to test elementary students to determine if schools do a good job?
>
>> teaching. Critics say the law forces teachers to teach to a particular?
>
>> test. From everything you've heard, do you think the No Child Left?
>
>> Behind Act has been good for public schools or not good?"??
>
>> ??
>
>>?
>
>> Only about a third said they think the law has had a positive influence?
>
>> on public education while slightly less than half said it has had a?
>
>> negative impact and a fifth were undecided. ...?
>
>> ??
>
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------?
>
>>?
>
>> I wonder if people would have a more favorable opinion of NCLB if they
>> were told that it obligates states to improve their schools, particularly
>> schools that serve large numbers of poor children, minority children,
>> children with disabilities, and children learning English?? Does anyone
>> outside of the spinmeisters at FairTest really think that most Americans
>> want to leave those children behind or that they would not embrace the
>> notion that states should establish reasonable learning goals, administer

=== message truncated ===