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Re: response to Dave Stratman

If all it took to ensure that students achieved at a high level was to
pretend that each student was really smart, there would be not gaps in
student achievement. Every student would be functioning at the highest
level. This has not occurred. Unless one assumes, as Rist did, that some
teachers have a vested interest in preventing students from succeeding, I
think you are attaching too much importance to the impact of teacher

I directed a dissertation two years ago where a student tried to establish
this "teacher efficacy" effect" as it is called. The student failed to
detect the influence of teachers in this way. There is certainly a
substantial relationship between teacher expectations and student
performance, but it is more reasonsable to assume that student performance
influences expectations rather than the other way around.

George K. Cunningham
University of Louisville
----- Original Message -----
From: Judi Hirsch <judih@OUSD.K12.CA.US>
To: <ARN-L@listsrva.CUA.EDU>
Sent: Friday, September 03, 1999 3:07 PM
Subject: Re: response to Dave Stratman

> Dear George,
> I don't remember the Pygmailon or Rist studies that well, tho' I
> read them in grad school, but I do know from 30+ years of teaching, which
> also a kind of research, that by telling students (and their teachers and
> parents) that they are brilliant, and then acting on that assumption, does
> indeed result in them acting brilliantly. The opposite is also true: when
> people believe soemthing negative about themselves, aka internalized
> oppression, it is often stronger than outward oppression, and results in
> people holding themselves back because of foolish notions of their own
> capabilities, or lack thereof.
> Judi Hirsch
> Oakland, CA
> At 03:26 PM 8/30/99 -0400, you wrote:
> >Ray Rist is often given credit for publishing the first qualitative study
> >which I have somewhere, but can't put my finger on it right now. The
> >was conducted in the St. Louis school system and he blamed the black
> >in a particular classroom for being responsible for the low performance
> >black students in the class. He concluded that she did this
> >to some students to keep them from learning. This study has been harshly
> >criticized.
> >
> >This should not be confused with the Pygmalion in the Classroom study by
> >Rosenthall and Jacobson. They concluded that if teachers were told that
> >some students (picked randomly) were late bloomers and could be expected
> >blossom intellectually, these students would show substantial increases
> >IQ points. Neither their own data in the study cited nor subsequent
> >replications ever supported this thesis. I can't think of a study that
> >engendered more controversy and criticism. There is at least one book
> >written to criticize it and numerous major lengthy articles. This study
> >remains one of the most often cited in education and has been used to
> >all sorts of things for which it was never intended. For example that
> >expectation suppress student performance. This study addressed only the
> >effect of high expectations., and not very well.
> >
> >The power of the study comes from purporting to prove what many already
> >intuitively believe to be true.
> >
> >George K. Cunningham
> >Professor
> >University of Louisville
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: Monty Neill <Mneillft@AOL.COM>
> >To: ARN-L@listsrva.CUA.EDU <ARN-L@listsrva.CUA.EDU>
> >Date: Monday, August 30, 1999 2:14 PM
> >Subject: Re: response to Dave Stratman
> >
> >
> >>In a message dated 8/28/99 5:18:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time,
> >>Csubstance@AOL.COM writes:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> Review that Annie Stein (NYC) shared with me more than 25 years ago.
> >was
> >>> an article about tracking kindergarten students through social cues
> >>> organizing the tables from "advanced" through "remedial" based on
> >>> like
> >>> ability to sit without squirming and shoes. I believe the author was
> >named
> >>> Crist.
> >>
> >>Was the author Ray Rist? I think it may even have been called Pygmalian
> >>the Classroom, tho that might be another book. One of the scary elements
> >>Rist's ethnographic work is that not only were the kids pretty much all
> >>black, but so were the teachers. They sorted by perceived class
> >>
> >>Monty Neill
> >>
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> >
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